Getting Fed Up With Sun: Can't Get Systems, Breaking Existing Ones

16 Apr '07 - 19:41 by benr

I'm sooooooooooo tired of making excuses for Sun. I just got two X4200 M2's, not because I want them but because Sun can't get Joyent X4100's. Why Sun can't produce systems to meet customer demand constantly amazes me! There aren't many people inside or outside of Sun who evangelize the company as much as I do, but I'm tired of getting people fired up about systems and then hearing they can't get systems!

Not only can't Sun produce systems to meet customer demand, they cheap out and break the existing models. My X4200 M2, which I didn't want in the first place because of its size, has 2 NGE's and 2 Intel E1000g's!!! This is absolute bullshit. The X4x00's should all have 4 E1000g's. Thats what I want, thats what I run, thats what I need. I refuse to run NGE's on an $5,000 server!

And while I'm at it, SunSolve is a pile of crap. I've waited year to see it improved, but nothing. Its utterly useless. The search page is integrated with the Sun.com site search which makes you wonder why you pay so much, plus most of the information is ancient and or impossible to find. Doc.Sun.com has useful information but the site is a pile of crap, difficult and archaic to navigate, and no one is doing anything about it. For years I've heard things will improve, but here in 2007 still nothing has been done and nothing looks like it will.

I want X4100's, NOT M2 BULLSHIT. I want lots of them and I want them quickly. I want a SunSolve worth paying for. I want a docs.sun.com that has been updated and more easily navigated than what we had 5 years ago. And most of all, I don't want to keep hearing that Dell doesn't have these problems!!! Damnit Sun, lets get it together and fix these things and lets do it NOW.

UPDATE: My fellow Joyeur, Mark Mayo, just wrote up a sister-post in the Joyent company blog: How to completely ruin a great piece of server kit (regarding the Sun X4200 M2)

UPDATE2: I'm getting an absolute flood of mails from people expressing the same frustrations that I mention and that we see in the comments here. Sun Executives are aware of this and responded immediately from the very top down. Sun may have its problems, but one thing that I've always found to be true is that they are forthright, honest, and responsive. I'm extremely appreciative of Sun's understanding and response. Remember, they can't change if we don't make our demands known! Just switching to Dell doesn't send a clear message unless you tell them why you're switching to Dell. And what's clear is we don't want to buy Dell, but rather people feel they don't have a choice. But we do! Sun is our company! Let's help it be successful and drive it towards excellence. Remember, despite it all we've got one hell of a base to build on!

UPDATE3: Due to my crappy spam handler many people commenting are getting "Spam is not appreciated" notes. I'm sorry about that. Please send your comment to benr@cuddletech.com and I'll post it for you.

UPDATE4: I'm now talking with a Platform Architect in NVIDIA's chipset group. Its awesome to see wheels turning. Lets see if something happens though, but still I'm encouraged!

UPDATE5: Wes Adams, Corporate Account Manager, Sun Enterprise Sales Group, has helped us overcome our supply issues helping to push through pending orders that previously were 3 weeks away, now the system will be in our VAR's warehouse on Monday morning at the latest. We're very pleased and appreciative.

UPDATE6: I posed the architectural decision to use NGE to Mr John Fowler who confirmed my theory that "Its there, we should use it" (my words, not his), and he went further to pose the question to both Ali Alasti and Andy Bechtolsheim. The reason for NGE is to both reduce chip count (and thus reduce heat, reduce power consumption, and improve reliability) and cost. Ali added "The future of x64 chipset is in direction of further integration of all types of functionality including GE." There are no plans to use NGE on X4600 or X4600M2. I suggested that the data sheets explicitly declare what onboard solutions are provided, as the current data sheets say only "4 Gigabit Ethernet Ports" and further to consider, if technically possible, to at least swap the NGE's and E1000g's so that interfaces 0 and 1 are E1000g and 2 and 3 are NGE, thus allowing the most commonly used ports to be E1000g and to also better leverage the far superior PXE Boot Agent of the Intel NIC's. Andy Currid, Platform Architect in NVIDIA's chipset group, was glad to have feedback on the PXE boot ROM (Boot Agent) and is already working with Ali on solutions. Even though the Boot Agent is the thing post causing me pain, I've still made it clear that I'll always consider a platform with differing onboard NIC's to feel "cheap" and avoid such systems whenever possible. Whether or not this will have any impact on future designs I'm unsure, but while I have strong opinions I'm not about to dictate to Ali or Andy, I do trust their judgment.

I want to thank John Fowler, Andy Currid, Wes Adams, Johnathan Schwartz and everyone at Sun for being so responsive to my inquires and taking all of them very seriously. I'm very greatful.


- - C O M M E N T S - -

Wow, excellent rant. I thought I was the only person who felt this way…the opensolaris.org guys always sound so peachy-keen-sun-can’t-do-wrong that I felt like I must be missing something.

You are also right that Dell does NOT have these problems. :( :(

Shane Falco (Email) - 16 April '07 - 20:56

the m2’s use that nge shit? ugh. do they have the lame-o SP from the x2100m2 too? I recently killed an order of X2100M2 and X2200’s because they are such cut-corner pieces of shit. This has me quite concerned that the X4600 I just ordered will suck too :(

lynch - 16 April '07 - 21:21

While we’re talking about Sun’s failures. I’d like to point out their
other rather ludicrous failures:

Pricing for what is essentially a glorified download service level of
support. What’s that? $240 a year for updates to Solaris 10? Why was
it ok to sell the same thing for $120/yr last year. Why did the price
double?

Security, schmecurity. What’s that? No security fixes at all to
Developer Express releases that we only release four times a year. We
want developers to use our software to build more software for our
platform, but while they’re using it, they should be vulnerable to
every security problem out there for those four months…

No consumer graphics card options for video cards. Why do you only
offer Quadro FXs? Seriously.

System configuration “assistant” from hell on their website. It works
like nothing else I’ve ever seen. You can’t tell if you’re replacing
memory, adding memory, or what you’re doing.

Despite all of my gripes, I have a lot of respect for other areas of
the company such as their engineering, OpenSolaris, and community
divisions.

Shawn Walker - 16 April '07 - 21:29

Whats up with docs.sun.com? It’s been deathly slow. I also noticed that the online support centre [[http://sun.com/osc]] is going to get an update although i can’t get details on it because its deathly slow too…

Karl (Email) (URL) - 16 April '07 - 22:38

Holy moly! What a rant! I knew that Sun was slacking in some areas, but I never knew it went to this extent! o_O

Cailin Coilleach (URL) - 17 April '07 - 00:33

I hear you on that. The company I work for is a relative startup and tried to buy Sun hardware some months ago upon my recommendation. After dealing with two different vendors we found it nearly impossible to buy the hardware we wanted. Heck, we brought our money to the table to the tune of 40k, still no deal. We didn’t even get what we asked for with the Try ‘n Buy. It was a sad day, but we ended up buying Dell hardware.

I always figured they would make it easier for customers like Joyent. Joyent has a pretty high profile in the world of many things Sun. I’m not exactly touched that Sun is treating everyone the same, considering the treatment.

Outside of Solaris 10, Java, and their software in general, it’s been a series of disappointments. I like so many things about the company, I do, I really do, I just wish they could get on the ball with the rest of their business.

Btw, been reading your blog for a while now, Ben. Have really enjoyed it, keep up the good work.

JoshJ (Email) - 17 April '07 - 00:41

Does the X2100 M2 have a crappy service processor? Are the X2100 or X4100 ones any better? I’m waiting for the paperwork to go through on our purchase of an X2100 M2 and could cancel/change it for the next few days, but this is our first x86 Sun and I expected something usable like the ALOM stuff on SPARC machines.

Thanks, and hope you get your server stuff sorted out.

Nicholas Riley (Email) (URL) - 17 April '07 - 00:49

i realize how idiotic it is, but one trick i’ve found (for docs.sun.com at least) is the site they link to order printed books actually has a better search engine and links back to sunon most of their pages.

For example, the “buy this book” link on this page:
[[http://docs.sun.com/app/docs/doc/817-1..]]

Takes you to this page, that you can actually do useful searches on:
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jboy (Email) (URL) - 17 April '07 - 01:05

@Nicholas, if you’re coming from ALOM, then you’ll have to get the X4100 (the “4”s, their iLOM is comparable. The “2”s really just do IPMI, and that’s one reason why we’ve never used them.)

Jason Hoffman (Email) (URL) - 17 April '07 - 01:38

Having used X2100M2, X2200, X4100 and X4200, I can say definitely avoid all of the X2×00 boxes. The SP on the X4100 and X4200 are great, and are as close to ALOM/openboot as I’ve seen on an x86 platform. The X2100M2/X2200 SP is a bastardized rig compared to the X4×00 series. Definitely order an X4100 instead, if you can!

lynch (Email) - 17 April '07 - 01:42

Argh, that’s one of the reasons we liked the 4100 – it had 4 real e1000 ports. I assume the 4100M2 equally broken?

Ben Charlton (Email) (URL) - 17 April '07 - 03:45

I just mentioned your plight on Jonathan S.’s latest blog entry, as it pertains to his comments on brand and expectations of a customer. Joyent shouldn’t be having issues with obtaining machines – certainly not after the brouhaha they had last year.

I built up an x2100 (non-M2) system last November for a consulting client, installing CentOS 4.4. I was very impressed with the overall build quality (much better than other x86 systems).

The only thing I didn’t like was the IPMI and lack of proper remote management – are you folks saying that the M2’s LOM sucks? I was under the impression that it was on the level with HP’s iLO offerings.

Nothing will ever beat proper ALOM (such as on the T1K, etc) in my viewpoint, but I don’t think we’ll ever have anything really comparable to ALOM and OBP on the x86 platform.

Bill Bradford (Email) (URL) - 17 April '07 - 11:44

Are the M2 variants really that bad?
The ilom on it appears quite reasonable. The CLI is idiosyncratic and you probably have to keep the manual on screen to use it. But at least it has one.
I expect the web GUI is the easiest way to do things in general..

And how bad can the nge ethernets be. Gigabit ethernet is a pretty mature technology. As long as the driver is solid, I would be surprised if the underlying hardware adapter can make that much difference.

What problems do people actually have with them?
reliability issues? Performace? Higher CPU usage at gigabit throughputs due to not doing interrupt aggregation.

There must be something specific to deserve this much vitriol.

Robert Cohen (Email) - 18 April '07 - 01:52

This crappy NGE card drives us crazy. The drivers are FAR away from being stable and lets not talk about so called performance.

The latest iLOM issues regarding the 1.1.1.1(.1.1.1.1.1) release are really pain in the… you know it. Releasing an out of band management software/firmware that isn’t supporting other clients then english ones is absolute bullshit…

we are really frustrated about the recent changes at sun. We switched from dell hopeing that sun would provide us a stable platform that we missed at dell and that sun will follow its own “sparc platforms way” of continuing cool systems. then came the M2… could it even get worse? M3 = SiS Chipsets? VIA Rhine NICs?

Jens (Email) - 18 April '07 - 04:39

Ben, we’ve had some similar experences to you. See, my latest blog, and links therein:

[[http://www.psynixis.com/blog/2007/04/1..]]

But Sun got there in the end (we even got an X4100 delivered a couple of days ago ;-)).

By the way, Dell is not without its own problems in terms of being able to deliver hardware. For the last couple of orders we’ve placed with Dell, there have been unexpected delays in delivering equipment.

Simon Brocklehurst (URL) - 19 April '07 - 04:25

I wish Sun would fix the crappy ILOM updates for the X4200 series. The last time I had to patch my bank of X4200’s it was to version 1.1 and you had to run a pre-flash script (which was a PITA). Now I have some shelf-spare servers that need to be updated and that same pre-flash script is gone from the latest v1.3 updates and the forums all describe show-stopping problems with upgrading. I still can’t find a clear answer and am afraid to toast my machines.

Why does it have to be this hard?

Now I’m really starting to re-consider my choice of vendor with all the M2 crap. The M2 series weren’t out when we made our last round of purchases.

Jeff Harris (Email) - 20 April '07 - 12:59

Do you guys know if the X2100 M2’s can work with the yet to be released AMD quad core Barcelona chips? I mean, they are they are the same socket/pins and AMD site suggests that it will.

I guess this could apply to any of the M2s.

Anil - 23 April '07 - 17:41

Hi Ben,
Could you give some more background on the nge0/jumpstart issues you encountered? I jumpstarted about 60×4200 M2s off their nge0 interfaces, and it seemed to go pretty smoothly. Were the servers on a 10/100 connection instead of GigE?

William Hathaway (Email) (URL) - 16 June '07 - 14:11

William: The systems were on a gigabit connection, although I fail to see how being on a 10/100 connection would be any different, it was a fireware issue not hardware.

If you had no issues jumping on NGE I’m glad for you. You may have firmware more recent than I had in which the issue is fixed or simply had a different experience. If I deal with any NGE M2’s in the future I’ll update, but so far I’ve moved past all the issues of getting non-M2 systems and continue to avoid M2’s.

benr - 17 June '07 - 02:58

dumb freaking ass the sun is apart of the functioning of the planet get over it and the mother earth will do what she will at all times so what if we are here to witness the self destuctive attitude she has she will do as she will

shannon (Email) - 18 November '07 - 03:59

Cool … I’m not alone. I was used to SPARC, loved Sun (in a certain way), switched departments and got … the X4100 M2. :( What I can’t understand is that they are really killing their own image over a network driver.

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